The Spatial Connection

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[00:00:00] Kelly: Welcome back to the Spatial Connection Podcast, where we explore the fascinating journeys of geospatial professionals and discuss the incredible ways location-based technologies are shaping our world. I'm your host Kelly McGee, and in this episode we talk with Dr. Stacy Brown, the chair of the geography department at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Listen, as we discover how she went from just wanting to go to a large university, to now being the chair of a geography department within a large university. We will also learn about what it takes to actually design and manage a program.

[00:00:35] Kelly: Welcome back everybody that's come back to the podcast. Today we have Dr. Brown-Amilian from SIUE, and this is gonna be a really excellent podcast to put you on the hook just because of fact.

[00:00:46] Stacey: No pressure.

[00:00:47] Kelly: Just because we get a chance to talk about something a little bit different. You know, I invited you to the podcast mainly because of the fact that, I want to talk a little bit about, first of all, your background. I think that's interesting. How does, how do you get to the [00:01:00] position that you're at. And also how is a, a geography program established, you know, and what kind of things do you have to think about when you're designing courses and how do you work with the students? How do you get students prepared? So I'm gonna kinda let you drive a lot of that and go from there and we'll, we'll, kinda.

[00:01:17] Kelly: Hit topics as they go along. So how did you, I guess, where did you get your start? What got you into geography and what was your educational background to get you to SIUE and you know, kind of go from that point?

[00:01:29] Stacey: Okay. Well first thanks again for having me on the show.

[00:01:31] Kelly: Happy to have me.

[00:01:32] Stacey: Um, I'm happy to be here.

[00:01:33] Stacey: So, um, I grew up in a really small town in Oklahoma, a town near Ardmore called Healdton. Whenever I graduated high school, I wanted to go to one of the big universities. And so at that point it was either OU or Oklahoma State. So I toured both places and I absolutely fell in love with Oklahoma State University in Stillwater, Oklahoma.

[00:01:53] Stacey: And so I, uh, you know, go into the previews and all that, those kind of things and like, you know, pick your major kind of [00:02:00] deal. And I've always wanted to be a doctor. And so I was like, well, let's go chemical engineering and pre-med.

[00:02:04] Kelly: Oh, really?

[00:02:05] Stacey: So I was really excited about doing all that. And then the first day of the semester.

[00:02:12] Stacey: I sat in some classes and I thought, yeah, no, I don't think I'm gonna be able to do this. And then the second day it was even worse. And so I just became an undeclared College of Arts and Science major

[00:02:24] Kelly: That that was a quick change. It

[00:02:25] Stacey: Was a very quick change. Um, but I stayed in a couple of the classes and I really appreciated being able to explore.

[00:02:34] Stacey: At college.

[00:02:34] Kelly: Yes.

[00:02:35] Stacey: Right. So I took math classes. I love math. So I thought, well, maybe I'll be a math major. And then once I got into the five hour calculus class, I was like, Nope, not happening. And I thought about business, but I wasn't really keen on that. And so I just kind of started, you know, working with my advisors and, um, they were just mentioning these geography classes, how they take a lot of these things.

[00:02:55] Stacey: And so I remember taking physical geography, and we went on a fun field [00:03:00] trip and saw caves and sand dunes in Oklahoma. And I was like, wow, this is really neat. And so I just sort of kept taking geography classes and I kept exploring and I kept exposing myself to different things. And then it was time for me to actually have to pick a major.

[00:03:16] Stacey: And I realized that, wait a minute. I can do all the things that I wanna do with geography. I can incorporate math into it. Yeah. With doing statistics, I can think about business aspects with economic geography. I can think about places in general with any kind of regional course or whatever. I can think about migration.

[00:03:36] Stacey: Right. You can look at cemeteries and kind of understand where people are coming from. Right. We can trace migration and, and, and histories. With all of that. And so the more and more I started taking those advanced courses and then I found GIS. And I remember still to this day sitting in one of the computer labs and I coded a [00:04:00] calculator, like I made a calculator, do what it was supposed to do with just code.

[00:04:03] Stacey: And I was like, oh my goodness, this is something right? And so even though I loved my physical geography course, I really was. Interested in people and again, businesses and all of that. So I was definitely more of the human geographer side of things. But even as a 20-year-old, I knew that that GIS was really something special.

[00:04:28] Stacey: And that being a a, a female in the late, late nineties in the profession, having those computer skills, having the math skills. Somewhere in my brain told me, you gotta keep at this.

[00:04:41] Kelly: Yes.

[00:04:41] Stacey: Because you're going to be really marketable if you keep this up.

[00:04:45] Kelly: That's one of the things I think a lot of people don't realize is that additional skills, math and computers

[00:04:50] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:04:50] Kelly: Is a great complimentary skill.

[00:04:52] Stacey: Exactly. Exactly. And so then of course I was happy with my major. I got a economics minor and I had a GIS [00:05:00] certificate, and then it was time to think about a job. At that time, again, in the late nineties, early two thousands in Oklahoma, it was gonna be a lot of pipeline mapping.

[00:05:09] Stacey: And that was not something that I wanted to do. And so I started looking around for a master's program and I found a, a focus of location analysis, so analyzing locations.

[00:05:21] Kelly: Okay.

[00:05:22] Stacey: You know, why are car dealers all along the same route? Right. Why are hotels all along the same location? And sure enough, there was a program, and it still exists.

[00:05:30] Stacey: It's at University of North Carolina at Charlotte. And so when I graduated with my Bachelor of Science degree, I moved out to Charlotte, North Carolina, got my Master's

[00:05:38] Kelly: okay.

[00:05:38] Stacey: And fell in love with that city and just felt so proud of myself for making that decision. And so learned a lot more, did a lot more of the GIS courses, did more of the quantitative techniques, and really kind of honing my math skills and those kinds of things.

[00:05:54] Stacey: And one of our assignments was to find a newspaper [00:06:00] article. Again, this is early two thousands.

[00:06:02] Kelly: Okay?

[00:06:02] Stacey: So we still had print paper and we had to find a newspaper article on a geographic topic,

[00:06:08] Kelly: okay?

[00:06:09] Stacey: And in the Charlotte paper at the time, and I actually still have this, which is kind of great. Um, it was still have the paper, I still have the newspaper clipping.

[00:06:17] Stacey: 'cause this, this is what started it all. So it was about Hispanics. And Latinos having worse access to grocery stores in Charlotte. And I was like, well, that's a geographic problem right there. Yes. Right. And I was like, well, I can map that, I can do stats on that. I can do that. And so that was what I chose for my thesis research and, um, found just some really fascinating things and.

[00:06:43] Stacey: I was really gung ho and so I finished early. I think I defended my thesis on April 1st.

[00:06:49] Kelly: Oh, wow.

[00:06:49] Stacey: And then there was a, um, let's see here, if I can remember it. International Council of Shopping Centers, ICSC. I don't know if it still exists anymore, but they hold a [00:07:00] conference in Miami. And I had just finished this thesis and I was like, well, I'll go present down in Miami.

[00:07:05] Stacey: Why not?

[00:07:05] Kelly: Oh yeah, you got good material now,

[00:07:06] Stacey: Good material, like, you know, lo and behold, there were a lot of industry folks there, and two people from the Walgreen Corporation saw my presentation and we ended up chitchatting over appetizers and hor d'oeuvres and, uh. Next thing I know, I was applying for a job as a market analyst for the Walgreen Corporation.

[00:07:24] Stacey: Ended up getting that job and I moved to Chicago right after I finished my master's program. So I lived in, in the Deerfield area and worked for Walgreens.

[00:07:32] Kelly: So you

[00:07:32] Kelly: changed a lot of geography, Oklahoma. That's

[00:07:35] Stacey: Oklahoma, North Carolina, Illinois. Yep. Um, and so I started working there and seeing this enormous company and the amount of data they had.

[00:07:47] Stacey: And just the maps that we could make was just amazing. Amazing. And we would get to travel all over the place and again, use our maps and use our resources and drive around [00:08:00] cities and just kind of get a feel for places, and it was just spectacular.

[00:08:04] Kelly: So you're finding out maps are more than just. Road networks and how to get from point A to point B.

[00:08:08] Stacey: Exactly. Exactly. And where in a neighborhood or in a new division, should we build a store or where is that? Retail.

[00:08:15] Kelly: Yeah,

[00:08:16] Stacey: pockets going, you know, and so I loved that aspect of the work, but what I really, really loved was helping the new employees. And because of my geography and GIS background, I was really quick to pick up on what can I do with these maps and what can I do and all these things.

[00:08:36] Stacey: And I really loved, again, training those new employees. And it was, I think just under two years into my time at Walgreens, the Association of American Geographers had their conference in Chicago just down the road. And I was already kind of thinking, I'm not sure if corporate America is for me, right? I'm in a big, huge [00:09:00] city.

[00:09:00] Stacey: I'm a southern girl. I kind of wanna get back to my roots a little bit. I was like, well, I don't know if this is the right place for me. And I go into this geography conference and I hear all these conversations about, as you know, all the things that geographers can do. Right? And I remember, and this might be cheesy, but whatever.

[00:09:20] Stacey: I was like, I'm home. This is where I will,

[00:09:23] Kelly: in the conversations,

[00:09:24] Stacey: in those conversations, in that geography sphere, not in that business sphere, in the corporate America sphere. And so I ran into my old instructors from, and for old professors at Oklahoma State, they had a brand new PhD program. So I think the min the week, the day I got back, or the minute I got back to my apartment, I filled out an application and I realized.

[00:09:44] Stacey: I wanna teach and I wanna mentor people.

[00:09:47] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Stacey: And talk to them about how great geography is and how you can really find your place. Right. If you're a math person, we have an opportunity if you are creative, right? Make some creative maps, do [00:10:00] all the things that you can do,

[00:10:01] Kelly: All the different ideas that can,

[00:10:02] Stacey: All those different ideas, all your different thoughts, right?

[00:10:04] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:10:04] Stacey: Even if you love zombies. You can do geography because it's distance decay. Okay. Right.

[00:10:09] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:10:09] Stacey: Where are there gonna be more people? Where do you need to go? Right. I mean, it's all those things. You can do it all. And so I go back to Oklahoma State and spend five years there getting my PhD and I'm, I'm proud to say that I was the first female PhD with geography.

[00:10:25] Kelly: Oh wow.

[00:10:26] Stacey: And then I was the seventh overall PhD that was granted a PhD. So

[00:10:30] Kelly: Nice.

[00:10:31] Stacey: It was great. And what was interesting was I took a lot of those. Concepts and the topics that we kind of thought about to promote a business setting. And I thought, well, I can still do that in things of a location, right? Like if I think I wanna do a, a site selection, I can still do those kinds of things.

[00:10:53] Stacey: But then it got me thinking more, well, what makes a place healthy?

[00:10:57] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:58] Stacey: Are there certain [00:11:00] things that. Are not in our control. Right?

[00:11:03] Kelly: Right.

[00:11:03] Stacey: We know that we aren't supposed to smoke or we're not supposed to drink and we're not supposed to eat bad food, but we all probably do that a little bit. But like what?

[00:11:10] Stacey: Are there things in the environment? Is there things on the built environment that can either enhance or detract from our health? So things like sidewalks. Right. Being safe to cross a road or even walk.

[00:11:24] Kelly: Okay.

[00:11:25] Stacey: Right. Even having a safe place to walk. What about what types of stores, right? What types of food do you have available?

[00:11:32] Stacey: Yes. Do you have a grocery store or do you have a dollar store? Right.

[00:11:35] Kelly: So this goes back to your North Carolina.

[00:11:37] Stacey: It goes all the way back to the roots that I found for the food desert thing. And so I sort of focused on the health, geography side of things.

[00:11:44] Kelly: Okay.

[00:11:44] Stacey: So medical and health, geography, and really thought about.

[00:11:48] Stacey: How can I, as a geographer and as a GIS user, how can I build those layers of all these things that, you know, maybe there are [00:12:00] these toxic things. Are they really contributing to bad health or is it just an anecdotal type of a thing? Right? Pulling in census data, thinking like poverty and education and race and.

[00:12:11] Stacey: Even age of housing, how is that of an impact for maybe asthma cases? Right. So,

[00:12:17] Kelly: So now you're, you get to put that spatial component to it.

[00:12:20] Stacey: Exactly.

[00:12:21] Kelly: Do statistical analysis.

[00:12:22] Stacey: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that was one of the things that I. Again, that little voice inside my head was like, you're a human geographer and you can use GIS.

[00:12:34] Stacey: Right? This is a unique skillset for you. And so as I was finishing up with the PhD program and starting to look at job opportunities, I saw here at SIUE. And I immediately saw a connection that I can maybe work with the nursing school, I could work with pharmacy. Right,

[00:12:52] Kelly: Right.

[00:12:53] Stacey: Having a human geographer that does GIS.

[00:12:55] Stacey: It could be a different perspective in classes and different assignments that we [00:13:00] do. Right, that you're thinking about those people and pulling in all the different data that we can. Luckily I got the job and so I'm happy to admit that this will be the start of my 15th year at SIUE. So, yeah.

[00:13:12] Kelly: Well, congratulations on that.

[00:13:13] Stacey: Yeah. Yeah. And I was lucky enough to have a lot of support from the faculty when I was just starting out and I was able to teach medical geography, and I've created a new course for that. And then I teach GIS for medical geography. So we use a lot of health data and especially hospital discharge data.

[00:13:31] Kelly: Hmm.

[00:13:31] Stacey: Because. As you know, right? A lot of times we get things and they're nice and pretty and clean and you could just use them,

[00:13:38] Kelly: Right

[00:13:38] Stacey: and in reality, we know that that is not the truth. And so again, kind of being able to pull that spatial component into health and look at, you know, there's this anecdotal thing around here that nobody really likes the hospitals on this side of the river, so they all go across the river, right?

[00:13:54] Stacey: And so that proved a challenge because. You have to go to the public health departments to get the discharge [00:14:00] data right. And so I have contacts at Illinois and I have contact in Missouri, and if we don't include Missouri, we lose about 10% of the health issues.

[00:14:09]

[00:14:09] Kelly: Oh, wow.

[00:14:10] Stacey: Yeah. Well,

[00:14:10] Kelly: I think that's one of the things, especially for listeners that aren't familiar with where. SIUE, we're just on the east side.

[00:14:17] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:17] Kelly: In Illinois from St. Louis,

[00:14:19] Stacey: right? Mm-hmm.

[00:14:20] Kelly: So being in that St. Louis metropolitan area, we have access to both the Illinois and Missouri, and a lot of the community either are

[00:14:28] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:14:29] Kelly: Traveling to or from

[00:14:31] Stacey: Yes.

[00:14:31] Kelly: For the work or what have,

[00:14:32] Stacey: yes.

[00:14:32] Stacey: The bi, the Bi-State region really does, it's a unique case study, a unique study area, if you will, but it also brings its challenges, right?

[00:14:41] Stacey: Because. You can't just rely on one state's data,

[00:14:45] Kelly: right.

[00:14:45] Stacey: Or one community's data. You have to really think about like, wait a minute, there is a lot of movement across the river.

[00:14:52] Kelly: Yes.

[00:14:52] Stacey: To go to St. Louis and over here. Right. And, and on the opposite way, maybe not so much for healthcare or other things, but. [00:15:00] It definitely exists

[00:15:01] Kelly: and it impacts the, the funding side. You know, you have St. Louis, which is a major metropolitan area

[00:15:05] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:15:05] Kelly: Where on our side you have more, more smaller communities Exactly. Which don't have the same funding mechanism.

[00:15:10] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:10] Kelly: So when you look at, from a hospital perspective, yeah. Those hospitals have a lot more con uh, contributing funds going into that side.

[00:15:18] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] Kelly: So that's interesting to, to think about that geography piece of that.

[00:15:22] Stacey: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:23] Kelly: So now 15 years. Yeah. So when did, so right now you're the chair of the Geograph Am Department.

[00:15:28] Stacey: I am,

[00:15:28] Kelly: and when did you become chair?

[00:15:29] Stacey: So, I became chair July 1st, 2023. Okay. Which is also the same time that I became a full professor too.

[00:15:36] Stacey: So.

[00:15:36] Kelly: Awesome.

[00:15:36] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:15:37] Kelly: So now you've got a couple years under your belt, right?

[00:15:39] Stacey: I do,

[00:15:39] Stacey: I do.

[00:15:40] Kelly: I think so. Listening to your story there, it's interesting. I know when I got involved with geography many years ago, people always saw geography as. When you say, I'm learning geography, the question they would ask you is what's the capital of?

[00:15:55] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:56] Kelly: And that people had that very narrow. Viewpoint [00:16:00] of what geography is.

[00:16:01] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:01] Kelly: And just listening to you talk, there's so many different aspects and areas of focus within geography. You know, you're talking about medical geography, you know, there was economic geography.

[00:16:10] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:10] Kelly: We talked about that earlier, that that was one of the courses that I never thought of it when I took it.

[00:16:15] Kelly: It was like mind opening, you know?

[00:16:17] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:16:17] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:17] Kelly: And then even without the GIS industry as it is now days, there are so many different. Areas that people can, and students can focus

[00:16:27] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:16:27] Kelly: In geography alone.

[00:16:28] Stacey: Oh, yeah.

[00:16:29] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:29] Kelly: And I think that also allows for students to tie in other interests as you.

[00:16:33] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:33] Kelly: Well know, I mean, you can went that route.

[00:16:35] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:36] Kelly: You're able to tie in something that you might have multiple interests.

[00:16:39] Stacey: Right.

[00:16:39] Kelly: Uh, math,

[00:16:40] Stacey: right.

[00:16:40] Kelly: Economics, what have you.

[00:16:41] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:41] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:43] Kelly: Now, as a chair of the geography department, what's it like? To have to manage it. A department, what is it that you have to think about and how do you decide what courses and, you know, and how much do you draw on your past experience?

[00:16:58] Kelly: Sure.

[00:16:59] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:59] Kelly: That [00:17:00] you decide what you're gonna have.

[00:17:02] Stacey: So it's interesting you say that because whenever you start out as a faculty member, and I will just say this from my own perspective, so I wanna, I wanna clarify that, you know, when you, when you're going into school, and especially when you're going to PhD.

[00:17:15] Stacey: It is a very selfish, right? You have to really work hard and what you wanna do, and you have to be selfish, right? You've gotta be the one to like, I have to do this research, or I have to, to do this, or I've gotta get my dissertation finished so I can get the job right.

[00:17:29] Kelly: There's nobody pushing you.

[00:17:30] Stacey: Right.

[00:17:30] Stacey: Exactly. So, and so, to me, at least when I was beginning. A, I was trying to figure out new location, you know, meeting my colleagues, becoming friends with people, a new area, right? You're moving to a new place, so it's all new,

[00:17:46] Kelly: Right

[00:17:48] Stacey: You're going from graduate student to now you're the professor, you know? And so you're still kind of in that graduate student mentality, but yet you're in charge kind of at least of your classes.

[00:17:58] Stacey: And so you [00:18:00] really, you really do sort of wanna create your own roadmap, if you will. And so I became, I got tenured and promoted a few years before COVID. I don't know if it was COVID itself or just the timing of my career, but I realize now like, Hey, I don't have to just go, go, go, go, go. I can actually think about what do I wanna do now and who do I wanna partner with, and what do I want my legacy to be, or what do I want my research to be, right?

[00:18:33] Stacey: And so. I did a lot more with professional organizations. I became involved with the Illinois Geographical Society, started joining their board and going to their conferences and learning more about the state that I was in, and bringing students along to those conferences. And then when I became, you know, right, right.

[00:18:54] Stacey: A little bit while I was going up through professor and then the thought of me becoming chair. [00:19:00] It was really a, a great moment, at least in my career, where I can now start thinking, okay, what puzzle pieces, where do we need to either find those puzzle pieces or where are those puzzle pieces already working?

[00:19:13] Kelly: Right,

[00:19:13] Stacey: right.

[00:19:13] Kelly: Okay.

[00:19:14] Stacey: And at least for, again, because we are still, we're all kind of doing our own thing in terms of the different faculty, and I'm, I'm assuming this is for true for everybody. What's been really fun as chair is to get a glimpse of what everybody's doing. Right. So like we have a couple folks that do a lot of geography education, and then we have folks that do a lot of remote sensing and a lot of agricultural work.

[00:19:39] Stacey: I'm getting to understand more of that now. We even have

[00:19:42] Kelly: Where that wasn't your focus,

[00:19:43] Stacey: where it wasn't. Yeah, exactly. So I was kind of in my own, again, on my own road, right? They're all doing their other things and now I can see the bigger picture and so now I can think about. Well, this student was really good at this.

[00:19:55] Stacey: Maybe they could work here. Or maybe they're, this could be an interesting topic [00:20:00] or, and, and of course, mentoring students and helping students finish up has just been icing on the cake. You know, I, again, I'm 14 years in, I've, I've helped many graduate students finish up, but I think SIUE is maybe unique in some cases that we have to do a senior assignment.

[00:20:19] Stacey: It. So for geography, it's a year long process and you start with a eight week class, which I think you talked to Dr. Hu's class, and those students have to come up with a topic all on their own. So they've gone three years or so, maybe a year in our program if they transferred in from a community college and they have to decide what they wanna do.

[00:20:41] Stacey: And we are as assigned as mentors. We can help them along the way, but it's really, they're self-guided, right. And I have been so lucky to have been able to mentor over 50 students in my time as undergrads. And again, running the gamut [00:21:00] from traffic related asthma to again, the zombie and distance decay and zombies and you know, of course for food deserts and food access and healthcare access.

[00:21:12] Stacey: I mean, it's just been, it's, again, it's just icing. On the cake. Right. And it makes me very, very happy that I listened to that little voice and I focused on what I really loved about the job that I was in at Walgreens.

[00:21:25] Kelly: I was gonna say a very strong tie there.

[00:21:27] Stacey: Yeah. And I realized like that's where my passion is.

[00:21:30] Stacey: And I'm really proud that I could have followed that passion and I've been able to do that for. Really almost 20 years now.

[00:21:36] Kelly: Makes an exciting career, doesn't it?

[00:21:38] Stacey: It is. Yeah. It, it, it, it, it doesn't make you wanna stop anytime soon.

[00:21:41] Kelly: That's right.

[00:21:43] Kelly: Some people always look forward to what they're retiring, they know the date.

[00:21:45] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:45] Kelly: I'll work about that later.

[00:21:46] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:47] Stacey: But you mentioned about, you know, as chair, again, I get to know more of what's happening in terms of my faculty and their research and in student research, but it is also what does the workforce need, right. [00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Kelly: Pretty much. So,

[00:22:00] Stacey: again, one of the things that I'm really proud about being at SIUE is, we teach a wide variety of students, wide variety of ages, and we are able to hopefully get them to where they need to be in terms of a profession. And at least for our department, we have really tried to keep up with what the industry needs. And one of those big decisions was a few years ago, we switched over to ArcGIS Pro really early.

[00:22:29] Stacey: So we do use Esri products. But we made the decision to, to focus on pro

[00:22:34] Kelly: where it was gonna go.

[00:22:34] Stacey: It was where it was gonna go. And again, we have people and students that go to conferences and they saw the writing on the wall. Right? I think there are some that are looking a little more at the open source and some different ideas, but again, though, one of the things I think is, is, is so good about SIUE, and again, we're kind of maybe training the workforce.

[00:22:56] Stacey: It might not be the right way to think about it, but. We are definitely an [00:23:00] applied program that the things that you're learning, you can apply it again to a business degree.

[00:23:05] Kelly: Yes,

[00:23:05] Stacey: to a history degree, to an anthropology degree, whatever you want. You could bring in geographical skills. Right. And one of the things that I'm really proud of is that we don't just teach the software, right.

[00:23:17] Stacey: We don't just tell somebody here's. Make a map for us.

[00:23:20] Kelly: Right

[00:23:20] Stacey: right. We make them think about, okay, what did you learn in your human geography class? What did you learn in that economic geography class?

[00:23:26] Kelly: What is that map gonna tell you?

[00:23:27] Stacey: What about bio geography, right?

[00:23:29] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:23:29] Stacey: How do we think about all these different things that we learn throughout our time together at SIUE?

[00:23:36] Stacey: How can we put all of that together? And so yes, we think of GIS as a tool, but it's not the end all be all

[00:23:43] Kelly: Right.

[00:23:43] Stacey: Right? You have to know all those little things going into it like. What is the most important thing for this plant to survive? Right? What is it about X?

[00:23:55] Kelly: What layers are you gonna put in your GI S to answer any questions.

[00:23:58] Stacey: Exactly. [00:24:00] Exactly, exactly. So that to me, I think is one of our strengths that I'm really happy that we, again, kind of think about what's happening with industry and then just also kind of meet students where they need to be.

[00:24:13] Kelly: And I think that's important because. Students are gonna struggle with, they don't know what the industry needs.

[00:24:18] Kelly: They don't know what's out there. They don't know what questions they have, so they're gonna look to professors and say, okay, hey, what's, how do I apply this outside?

[00:24:25] Stacey: Right.

[00:24:26] Kelly: And having that ability to kind of share your past experience

[00:24:30] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:24:30] Kelly: And understanding what the connections are with the current industry, that's where they're gonna get that ideas.

[00:24:35] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:24:35] Stacey: So we've done a really great job of training students. We have such a great amount of alumni in our workforce. The thing that I am concerned about is how quickly things are changing.

[00:24:49] Kelly: And when you say things changing, what in particular?

[00:24:51] Stacey: Like geo AI.

[00:24:52] Kelly: Okay.

[00:24:53] Stacey: All of us know how many updates there are all the time to software.

[00:24:57] Kelly: Yes.

[00:24:57] Stacey: And because [00:25:00] the industry itself is changing, it seems to be changing a lot. It is a concern for all of us that are in those technology classes and those geospatial courses to make sure that we are still teaching

[00:25:14] Kelly: It's relevant

[00:25:15] Stacey: information. And so because we wanna stay relevant and continue to produce really good students and really good future employees, one of the things that I really hope to do is get out and talk to industry leaders and you know, is ArcGIS Pro still.

[00:25:34] Stacey: The main thing. Do we need to start bringing in more Arc Online or QGIS or some of these other open source platforms? Do we need to think about more of the higher level analyses or making sure we still teach the digitizing and all those basic skills that might actually be those entry level positions, but yet they need to kind of be at least exposed.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Stacey: To maybe the high level geo ai. Right.

[00:26:02] Kelly: Well, I think that's a, a very interesting concept because of the fact that yes, technology is changing. But I think one of the things more importantly is it's not that it's changing, it's always been changing. It's the rate at which it's changing.

[00:26:16] Stacey: Yes.

[00:26:16] Kelly: And when we bring in ai, that just changes the, it ramps up the speed of it a little bit more.

[00:26:22] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:22] Kelly: Because now people can answer questions faster. Right. You know, we, you mentioned before about newspapers. Hey, things were still in print. When I first started my journey back to go do my master's program, I had to take a research methods class again, and at first I was like, I don't understand that.

[00:26:38] Kelly: But from the first time I took that class to the second time I took that class. We now had the internet.

[00:26:42] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:43] Kelly: That changed, you know, that technology changed how we did everything.

[00:26:46] Stacey: Everything. Mm-hmm.

[00:26:46] Kelly: And so that technology didn't change what needed to be done or what had to be learned. It was how you did that.

[00:26:53] Stacey: Right.

[00:26:54] Kelly: And since that time, technology just changed faster and faster. Yeah. You mentioned the, [00:27:00] the how often we get updates, you know, before it'd be like every couple years you might get a new version and you'd have to. Uninstall that, and then it got to where you could upgrade your current one.

[00:27:09] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:10] Kelly: And it was a big deal.

[00:27:11] Kelly: And now you just leave your device on overnight and it's getting an update automatically. Right. That, you know, that was never conceived before. So my thought on that is it's not so much about how do you keep up with technology. 'cause technology is always gonna change. You've gotta do that. But there's one underlying piece to that is the concepts.

[00:27:31] Stacey: Yes,

[00:27:31] Kelly: it doesn't matter. And from a GIS standpoint, I use both, uh, commercial, ArcGIS and open source QGIS from a desktop perspective. It doesn't matter which one of those I use, it's still the concept. I still have to know how to answer the question.

[00:27:45] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:45] Kelly: You have to understand what the question is, but you do have to give that we have to teach some technology.

[00:27:51] Stacey: Right.

[00:27:51] Kelly: And it does make it very challenging to do so. I can, I can, I can feel that problem.

[00:27:55] Stacey: Yeah. Also, one of the things I'm really proud of, of our department [00:28:00] is we are teaching the Python programming class.

[00:28:02] Kelly: Good.

[00:28:03] Stacey: And of course, you know, you can take other scripting languages and that sort of thing like that, but I think that Python class, having that class be in a heavy rotation, I think that's been a really good, again, listening to what the industry needs.

[00:28:17] Kelly: Yes.

[00:28:17] Stacey: Seeing what's happening. Right. Think about how much data is available now. Right.

[00:28:23] Kelly: And it doesn't matter the discipline.

[00:28:25] Stacey: No, exactly. And so like, and you know, I'm, I still, I still feel like I kind of create maps. That can be static, and I don't really need to update them because I'm, I'm kind of talking about one little thing, or here are these, you know, here are all the dollar stores in 2022 or 2023.

[00:28:44] Stacey: Right. I could probably figure out how to continuously update that, but that's not necessarily something that I have to do.

[00:28:50] Kelly: Right.

[00:28:50] Stacey: But potentially somebody like yourself or other companies, like an agricultural company, anytime that new satellite passes over, you have to figure out what's changed and [00:29:00] what's updated, or think about wildfires, right.

[00:29:02] Stacey: We almost need to have some of these automated, those things that can update overnight for us and that Python scripting language can really help do that. And I think even some of that concept in terms of Right, does this map work for now?

[00:29:16] Kelly: Right.

[00:29:17] Stacey: But it's also now, like you almost have to have these maps that will continuously change with what the data tells you, right?

[00:29:23] Kelly: Because our data along with that is not just data. Now that data is changing and we have the quantity of it coming in so fast now.

[00:29:32] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:32] Kelly: That, how do you keep up with that? So the technology's gotta keep up with that.

[00:29:37] Stacey: Exactly.

[00:29:38] Kelly: So it's a, yeah, it's a very never ending cycle there.

[00:29:40] Stacey: Yeah, exactly. But I think that, again, one of the things that it I'm really proud of is that we really do.

[00:29:46] Stacey: This might be overused a little bit, but we really do teach the holistic approach, right? People have to take human geography, they have to take physical geography. They have to take those electives that they may not really care about, right?

[00:29:59] Kelly: Right.

[00:29:59] Stacey: But they're gonna learn [00:30:00] something eventually about it, and then they have those technique options.

[00:30:03] Stacey: Yes. Um, and so I, I still think that the way that we have done this program, and especially with the GIS piece. We're doing the best we can

[00:30:14] Stacey: at the moment.

[00:30:15] Kelly: You have a limited amount of time too.

[00:30:17] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Kelly: You know, everybody's not gonna stay around for 10 years to get a bachelor's degree

[00:30:22] Stacey: and to keep up with all those changes.

[00:30:23] Stacey: Right.

[00:30:23] Kelly: I may have done that,

[00:30:24] Kelly: but Right. It's, it's one of those things you, you want students to learn something that they can get out into the industry within a reasonable amount of time, otherwise they're also in that gap.

[00:30:35] Stacey: Right.

[00:30:36] Kelly: So it is very challenging. I could see that.

[00:30:37] Stacey: But you know, though, like you mentioned, knowing what a shape file is.

[00:30:42] Stacey: Knowing what is remote sensing? What is a remotely sensed image?

[00:30:45] Kelly: Right.

[00:30:45] Stacey: How, how would you explain that? How would you find these things out? The one thing I, the one thing I remember from when I interviewed at Walgreens, they were really trying to figure out your thought process. And so this [00:31:00] guy, Dave, I, I still know him and I'm friends with him on LinkedIn, so hi Dave.

[00:31:03] Stacey: Um, he asked me how many tubes of toothpaste should we have in a store?

[00:31:09] Kelly: Interesting.

[00:31:10] Stacey: Right.

[00:31:12] Kelly: You said at least one.

[00:31:14] Stacey: Well,

[00:31:14] Stacey: yeah,

[00:31:14] Stacey: but it was more like, we don't necessarily need a number, but how would you go about figuring that out?

[00:31:20] Kelly: Right?

[00:31:20] Stacey: And like what kind of step A, step B, what are those processes?

[00:31:24] Kelly: What influences that?

[00:31:25] Stacey: Right. Well, exactly. And same, same idea. Right? Okay. Let's see if we can reintroduce these sand frogs. Right. We need to know what layers, right. What is that first step? Okay. Where, where are the sand frogs at? What kind of habitat do they like? Do we have any of those around here? And it just is that continuous, again, cycle of figuring that out and seeing where we could put those sand frogs or where we could put a new store.

[00:31:47] Stacey: Where should we have? Whatever you wanna have.

[00:31:50] Kelly: It's just amazing that different thought processes go in there. Mm-hmm.

[00:31:53] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:54] Kelly: So. You're introducing Python. You've had Python in April. Yep. Which is a huge plus because [00:32:00] I was very fortunate when I went through the geography program, like we mentioned off camera Microphone earlier, but I had the, uh, I had computer programming that was very useful in the, you know, in my,

[00:32:14] Stacey: yeah.

[00:32:14] Kelly: GIS training. A lot of students don't have that. They go into a program and they start doing, you don't think about those other electives in

[00:32:22] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:32:22] Kelly: Different schools that you can do things with that. But yet it's so important, as you mentioned earlier, having these different viewpoints.

[00:32:29] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:30] Kelly: Even within the same program.

[00:32:31] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:31] Kelly: You know, we mentioned earlier, kind, I joked earlier about the economic geography. Right. I would never taken that, but even to this day. Many years, we won't go to how many years ago that it was done. But I still enjoyed that class. I learned so much. So sometimes I think you have to step out your comfort zone, even if it's not something directly tied to what you're doing.

[00:32:50] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:32:51] Kelly: And even if you don't wanna be a computer programmer, I think understanding the thought process in writing scripts is very useful in [00:33:00] solving those.

[00:33:01] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:33:01] Kelly: Uh. So, you know, problems.

[00:33:03] Stacey: Yeah, exactly. Well, and the, you know, the other thing too is there's gonna be a lot of changes coming, right? Yes. We're gonna have a new datum, we're gonna have some new coordinate systems, right?

[00:33:14] Stacey: The, all those things are coming,

[00:33:15] Kelly: We don't have enough

[00:33:15] Stacey: through. Yeah, exactly. Right? And so there is now this really unique opportunity for those geomatic side of things, right?

[00:33:25] Kelly: Yes. And.

[00:33:27] Stacey: That is a really old concept. Right?

[00:33:29] Kelly: Right.

[00:33:29] Stacey: And it's a very, I mean, that is traditionally geography, right? That is,

[00:33:34] Kelly: It's old, but yet still modern

[00:33:35] Stacey: and it, yes.

[00:33:36] Stacey: And so that is one of the areas that I'm really excited that we're kind of realizing that, hey, we need to really think about this geomatic side and how can we maybe bring in some industry partners, bring in some leaders. Bring in those subject matter experts and help let some students maybe be exposed to that.

[00:33:55] Stacey: Mm-hmm. And I will say we are really, really proud [00:34:00] that we have partnered with the College of Engineering. So we're within the construction management program. There is a brand new bachelor's degree and a minor degree in land serving and geomatics.

[00:34:09] Kelly: Nice.

[00:34:09] Stacey: So, yeah. So we're, we recognize that the land surveyors are one of the most vital.

[00:34:16] Kelly: Yeah,

[00:34:16] Stacey: jobs, occupations that you can have.

[00:34:18] Kelly: GPS did not get rid of these jobs, just so everyone knows.

[00:34:20] Stacey: No.

[00:34:21] Stacey: And from a lot of the industry leaders in land surveying, GIS, is becoming more and more part of their lives and everyday lives that they're doing, and so we really were able to partner with the engineering college and create that program and that's where we're hoping to bring a little more geomatics in and

[00:34:38] Kelly: Excellent.

[00:34:39] Stacey: And really help again, creating that workforce that the area needs.

[00:34:42] Kelly: That's excellent and that, you know, that is that forward thinking that says, Hey, we gotta think outside the box. It's beneficial not only to the geography students

[00:34:50] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:34:51] Kelly: But to the students in the other

[00:34:52] Kelly: schools.

[00:34:52] Stacey: Exactly.

[00:34:53] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:34:53] Kelly: I think that's,

[00:34:53] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:34:54] Kelly: You mentioned earlier, and I think we're kind of on the same page here, GIS, even though I'm a GIS professional, I've been [00:35:00] doing GIS early, I still think of GIS as a tool.

[00:35:02] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:02] Kelly: You know,

[00:35:03] Kelly: it is a tool to answer questions and it's a tool that's not just for geographers.

[00:35:07] Stacey: Right.

[00:35:07] Kelly: You know,

[00:35:07] Kelly: so you might have other disciplines that still can use this tool.

[00:35:11] Kelly: I cannot. Tell you how many different people I, in the industry that I have worked with, and I find out what their background was. It was not GIS.

[00:35:18] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:18] Kelly: You know, it's something else. But they got into GIS, even if they transitioned

[00:35:22] Stacey: Right.

[00:35:23] Kelly: It was something they learned to do another job.

[00:35:25] Stacey: Right.

[00:35:25] Kelly: So it, I think that diverse opportunity is very important.

[00:35:30] Stacey: Well, and I would even say that that is one thing that maybe it's a good thing and a bad thing at the same time that I. I wanna show more people how useful geography is, and so I've been lucky enough to partner with some nursing faculty and we've done some work with the WeCare Clinic down in East St.

[00:35:46] Stacey: Louis and kind of mapping who's using that services. I am working right now on a project with pharmacy looking at could we potentially. Add a little more mental health training to new [00:36:00] pharmacists.

[00:36:00] Kelly: Hmm.

[00:36:00] Stacey: Especially thinking about how many pharmacies have closed recently, especially in some of the rural areas that Right.

[00:36:07] Stacey: Sometimes those pharmacists are your first line of asking for help.

[00:36:12] Kelly: Hmm.

[00:36:12] Stacey: Right. Especially with some of those that are now doing all those MinuteClinics and the vaccines and Right. It's kind of becoming a bit of a health clinic, and so can we maybe see where those needs are the greatest. And work with that.

[00:36:25] Stacey: So that's another project that I'm in involved in. And then the last one has just been so much fun. I got approached by faculty in the history department about trying to see if we can map out. This man's claims from the 18 hundreds.

[00:36:43] Kelly: Oh wow.

[00:36:43] Stacey: So before Illinois even became a state. Right. And before we had the township and ranch system and grided out everything out.

[00:36:51] Stacey: Right. People were still buying and selling property.

[00:36:53] Kelly: Right,

[00:36:53] Stacey: Right. With the French and, and all the changes that were happening from the Louisiana purchase system,

[00:36:57] Kelly: they need to make sure that rocks still in the same place.

[00:36:59] Stacey: [00:37:00] Exactly. And so it has been fascinating to look back at some of these old survey maps. And for most of us as geographers and GIS people, digitizing is not that hard.

[00:37:11] Kelly: Right.

[00:37:11] Stacey: It might not something we love to do, but for a historian it is amazing.

[00:37:16] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:37:16] Stacey: That we can like show on a map where this man held property and so I have an interactive map that people can look at and it's just been what a fun little project to work on. It's just because I say yes, like I could do that.

[00:37:32] Stacey: You know, just like that little article like, well, I can research that. I can do that. It's no problem. So it's kind of funny what, again, knowing those tools, having that little bit of a background, you end up being able to figure things out. But it is really fun to kind of maybe use some of those sort of basic skills that again, you maybe take for granted, but you can still really.

[00:37:53] Stacey: Like, wow, this is seeing all these properties on a map and,

[00:37:57] Kelly: and you know what? A map sounds very [00:38:00] basic.

[00:38:00] Stacey: Mm.

[00:38:00] Kelly: And people don't realize the map is only basic of it. It's not of your topic or your interest.

[00:38:05] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:06] Kelly: But when you need to know something and you need to see those relationships.

[00:38:09] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:38:09] Kelly: How are you gonna do that?

[00:38:10] Kelly: Whether that map is digital or on paper, doesn't matter. You still need to see that. And it allows you to see those patterns. It allows you to see those relationships that you can't normally see in text or in numbers.

[00:38:21] Stacey: Right.

[00:38:22] Stacey: Yeah,

[00:38:23] Kelly: so it is very interesting that in the day and age that we live in and all the technology we have, how relevant a map still is, is for communication.

[00:38:30] Stacey: Exactly. Very.

[00:38:32] Stacey: And, and you know how many things can actually lead to more what? One in one map. Can then potentially ask four or five different questions. Right? That's the sign of great stuff, right? When you're like, well, I haven't answered everything.

[00:38:46] Kelly: Why are those two related? What's

[00:38:47] Stacey: exactly

[00:38:48] Kelly: what's going on there?

[00:38:49] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:38:49] Stacey: Mm-hmm. Exactly. So that to me, I think is what's been really fun to kind of do all these different, be involved with a lot of these different college or departments or colleges to sort of [00:39:00] see kinda that spatial perspective and that geographical perspective is, is a really unique angle to look at things.

[00:39:07] Kelly: And I think. Maybe it, I don't know if it's GIS in general or, or the technology as a whole, but I feel like geography was always kind of to the side. It was that small group of people.

[00:39:18] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:19] Kelly: I feel like it's getting more exposure.

[00:39:21] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:21] Kelly: People are realizing the relevancy of it more. I'm gonna give technology the, the kudos for that one.

[00:39:27] Kelly: 'cause more people are exposed to it. You know, we have Google Maps on our phones and things like that, so people are seeing these maps. It's not just the Rand McNally that they run around.

[00:39:35] Stacey: Right. Well, and even thinking about those Google maps, like I am amazed when it can tell me when I'm about to stop.

[00:39:42] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:39:43] Stacey: Because of

[00:39:43] Stacey: traffic and like, you don't realize how many people have those maps available

[00:39:47] Kelly: Right.

[00:39:47] Stacey: Where you see red. Right. I mean, it is really incredible.

[00:39:51] Kelly: It goes back to that data collection, how fast data's gotta be

[00:39:54] Stacey: Yes.

[00:39:54] Kelly: Collected and disseminated.

[00:39:56] Stacey: Right.

[00:39:56] Kelly: In an intelligible manner.

[00:39:58] Stacey: Exactly.

[00:39:59] Kelly: So,

[00:39:59] Stacey: and [00:40:00] again, that's not for everything.

[00:40:01] Kelly: Right?

[00:40:01] Stacey: Right. We don't have to have ev all of those. Every single map doing that. But it is really cool when it can do that.

[00:40:08] Kelly: Yes. It save you a lot of time.

[00:40:09] Stacey: Yes, indeed, indeed.

[00:40:12] Kelly: So, so I think that we've covered a lot, grant. I like, I like where this conversation's going. So now what do you see some of the, as a, especially in the, your role as a chair?

[00:40:22] Kelly: And we'll look at SIUE's geography program, since you're gonna have that hands on there.

[00:40:27] Stacey: Sure.

[00:40:27] Kelly: We kind of talked about what some of the challenges of what do you need to do, I guess, how many faculty do you have within geography department right now That kinda goes an ideal size.

[00:40:35] Stacey: Sure.

[00:40:36] Stacey: So including myself, we have 11.

[00:40:38] Kelly: Okay.

[00:40:38] Stacey: And then we have one instructor, and then we're really fortunate to have a few of our alumni come back and teach classes for us. So we have three or four of those kind of on a rotating basis on what they're like. For example, we have, um. Someone that does planning and she'll come in and teach a urban planning class for us.

[00:40:56] Kelly: Okay.

[00:40:56] Stacey: And so kind

[00:40:56] Stacey: of again, get students to [00:41:00] understand code, right?

[00:41:01] Kelly: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:01] Stacey: To understand some of those, to go to a planning meeting and see what happens and to really see how influential, again, kind of that bigger perspective, right? Zooming out and see, and that that class has led, gosh. Half a dozen, a dozen students to become planners.

[00:41:16] Kelly: Awesome.

[00:41:17] Stacey: Yeah. So, so our alumni are a really great resource for us.

[00:41:22] Kelly: If you can see those potentials for, you know, what does a job really entail?

[00:41:27] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:27] Kelly: Getting a job description sometimes doesn't really tell you what's gonna go on.

[00:41:30] Stacey: Right.

[00:41:31] Kelly: And a lot of times it's who's writing the job description and you get a very narrow focus on mm-hmm.

[00:41:37] Kelly: What it that's gonna entail. I've had a lot of jobs that you get out there and you're like, I don't think so, and then you get out. It becomes something totally different.

[00:41:44] Stacey: Right?

[00:41:44] Kelly: And it goes the other way around sometimes.

[00:41:45] Stacey: And I will say that that is, that is a really big challenge for myself because I have been at SIUE for 15, 15 almost, you know, I'm starting my 15th year.

[00:41:54] Stacey: Applying for academic jobs is very different than applying for any other [00:42:00] job. And so I feel really bad when students are like, well, what do I need to do to get jobs? And I'm like. I don't know. I mean, you're doing the classes, but like I'm not in a position like you might be where you've had to hire people and maybe had to let people go or, you know, encourage people to do something else.

[00:42:15] Stacey: And it's, it's a, it's a, it's a unique job as being a professor and especially as chairs, because like, you know, your material,

[00:42:24] Kelly: right.

[00:42:24] Stacey: And I know a lot of people, I've got a nice network, but. Trying to get one student a job. I mean, it is, it is definitely a, a difficult piece of that job for sure.

[00:42:36] Kelly: I can imagine.

[00:42:37] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:37] Kelly: And I think it's always, no matter what, it's always gonna be a challenge when you get into that.

[00:42:41] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:42:42] Kelly: Where do you see things going for SIUE what, what's kind of, where do you see maybe the next five years you got made, you got plans, you got, what's the one? So let me kind of preface that. When I went to SIUE, well, we had building two, building three, which are not there.

[00:42:57] Kelly: I mean, they're there. They're just not called that anymore.

[00:42:59] Stacey: They're renamed. [00:43:00] Yeah.

[00:43:00] Kelly: Right. So things have changed. Dr. Pearson.

[00:43:02] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:02] Kelly: He's done wonders in his time there. When he came on. I know he helped drive a lot of changes in the labs.

[00:43:09] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:09] Kelly: You know, modernize the labs.

[00:43:11] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:43:11] Kelly: And that was because geospatial, you know, GIS was really starting to progress at that time.

[00:43:16] Kelly: He brought in some previous commercial experience.

[00:43:19] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:19] Kelly: Which was very useful.

[00:43:20] Stacey: Right.

[00:43:21] Kelly: And that helped drive the, the labs. And one of the things SI's, geography department has done very well is you guys have carried on continuing those labs, keeping them modernized.

[00:43:31] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:32] Kelly: And which gives the students a great learning environment

[00:43:35] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:43:35] Kelly: To, to work with the latest technology.

[00:43:37] Stacey: Sure.

[00:43:38] Kelly: You know, you don't have to say, well, our computers won't run on this.

[00:43:40] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:41] Kelly: You have that stuff.

[00:43:41] Stacey: Right.

[00:43:42] Kelly: Very important.

[00:43:43] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:43:43] Kelly: Uh, so it, it provides a, a great environment to do, you know. Those were some big changes there, how that's done even the last time I visited, you know, just the way things were kind of laid out.

[00:43:54] Kelly: I saw changes in that. The courses that were there, it's like, okay, there's a lot more course, you know, that were [00:44:00] available. When I was there, it was very limited sometimes in what the courses were that you're gonna get access to.

[00:44:04] Stacey: Sure.

[00:44:05] Kelly: So you're definitely putting in a lot of time to think about how do we wanna drive this?

[00:44:09] Kelly: Where do you, where do you hope to see this in five years? And are there any major changes that you're anticipating?

[00:44:15] Stacey: So. The, the good thing and the bad thing is that the geospatial technology is really helpful to us and students really love it. I think, again, those engineering majors are looking at using GIS.

[00:44:30] Stacey: We've got a couple business students that are coming in and using GIS, so. Our footprint for GIS is getting larger and larger and that's a good thing. But yet it's also we're kind of space restricted in our lab for reasons that are well, like we wanna keep that faculty to student ratio. Right. As low as we can.

[00:44:49] Stacey: Right.

[00:44:50] Kelly: A lot of questions can come up and I, yeah, you can only answer so many.

[00:44:53] Stacey: Exactly. And technology problems, you know, all those things happen. So I think one of [00:45:00] our, again, it's a good thing and a bad thing, is that there are more and more, there's more and more interest. And so how do we continue to offer all of those other courses that we need to, to create that holistic approach, but yet still accommodate those folks that want just that technology side or adding in that technology piece?

[00:45:20] Stacey: I definitely can see us doing more with geomatics in the future. One of the bigger, maybe not necessarily bigger concerns, but. We have been really fortunate to have a lot of international students come through our graduate program, so we have a really good group of Nigerian students and Ghanaian students.

[00:45:38] Stacey: We've had a nice kind of steady flow from Nepal, and I think that we'll start having Bangladesh, but those students have had a really hard time getting visas.

[00:45:47] Kelly: Hmm.

[00:45:47] Stacey: And so we have a very, very limited number of new international students coming in, which is. Somewhat benefit because we can sort of, okay, how do we wanna really make sure we grow and can [00:46:00] we accommodate everybody?

[00:46:01] Stacey: But then it's also like we don't get that international, those cultural pieces that other learning types of

[00:46:07] Kelly: Yeah.

[00:46:07] Stacey: And perspectives. Exactly.

[00:46:09] Kelly: I think that's a good point because as a student, you know, you don't think about that a lot of times as what the international students are. It's like, okay, yeah. So there's international students coming in.

[00:46:19] Kelly: What does that mean?

[00:46:20] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:20] Kelly: But you know, especially as I get older, I really can see a lot of this. Is as a student, you go there, you get to meet people with a different, like you said, perspective, a different cultural perspective.

[00:46:30] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:31] Kelly: That is can help you think about a problem differently.

[00:46:34] Stacey: Exactly.

[00:46:35] Kelly: I was recently in San Diego at Esri conference and we had an Uber driver and he very proud of his heritage.

[00:46:41] Kelly: Right. And he was going through and he is telling us about everything he's done and he just talked the whole travel and I was like. I just listened to this guy. He was very engaging.

[00:46:50] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:46:50] Kelly: And you know, he went on about, you know, the troubles of water. He's like, you know, you don't think about it. We have to go and still walk in the village of his home village.

[00:46:58] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:58] Kelly: That they were still walking to [00:47:00] get water and that they were very, how they had to conserve it. And he says in the, you know, and the us you're like, people don't see that. They don't understand that. And you know, he took a relative over to say, Hey, you haven't been here, but let me show you what it's really like.

[00:47:14] Kelly: And that changed their perspective.

[00:47:15] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:47:16] Kelly: And even changed their direction of education. Yeah. So having that international influence

[00:47:21] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:47:22] Kelly: Is a great opportunity that I think a lot of students

[00:47:25] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:47:25] Kelly: Miss out when you get a chance to work with international students, meet 'em. Know. Learn about them.

[00:47:30] Stacey: Yeah.

[00:47:31] Stacey: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:31] Kelly: It's so I can understand the value of bringing more in.

[00:47:34] Stacey: Yeah. And you know, like we've talked too, there is just so much data, but yet you kind of have to know where to look for it. Yes. And you have to know what's good data and what's not good data.

[00:47:45] Kelly: That's a very good point.

[00:47:46] Stacey: Right. And so I think there's still that.

[00:47:50] Stacey: Concept, right? Like, well, everything's mapped now. There's gotta be data somewhere,

[00:47:53] Kelly: Right

[00:47:53] Stacey: Well, yeah, there might be data somewhere, but it might not be in a shape file form, or it might be really messy, or

[00:47:59] Kelly: you may not know

[00:47:59] Kelly: what the projection is [00:48:00]

[00:48:00] Stacey: exactly right. So there's a lot to go into that. So I think. You know, helping students with more of that, like big data.

[00:48:07] Stacey: Um, we do a graduate level class on machine learning and big data, but I think we wanna pull that maybe down into undergrad level too.

[00:48:13] Kelly: Okay.

[00:48:13] Stacey: Just to kind of have students exposed to that. But I really just, you know, we'll, we'll stay the course. 'cause I think what we've done since 1950 sixties or so has worked really well.

[00:48:24] Stacey: But I think it's just again. Talking with some industry leaders, hopefully that we can get some more international students back. And just sort of thinking about ai, thinking about all the, all the data that's available and how can we really continue to, to create that workforce that we have been.

[00:48:41] Kelly: Cool.

[00:48:41] Stacey: And I will say my other one big, big goal is I wanna get double monitors in our labs. So I'm not sure how I can make that happen, but.

[00:48:48] Kelly: That's a huge plus

[00:48:49] Stacey: by five in five years, let's hopefully have double monitors

[00:48:51] Kelly: everywhere.

[00:48:52] Kelly: So in the real world, if we don't have double monitor, you can't work.

[00:48:54] Stacey: I know.

[00:48:57] Kelly: Very interesting.

[00:48:58] Kelly: Well, Stacy, I think [00:49:00] at this point in time we covered a lot of ground.

[00:49:01] Stacey: Sure.

[00:49:01] Kelly: And I think it's been good and I think we could probably talk for another couple hours, but we'll kind of let's wrap it up here and I think that it's a good, good place for us to wrap it up. Maybe we'll have you back on the show and we can talk a little bit more.

[00:49:14] Stacey: Sure.

[00:49:14] Kelly: Uh, I think there's a lot of topics that we can cover. You know, that's what's nice. We get into these conversations and they can, they can go. And like you mentioned earlier, sometimes you're in that environment where, you know, you may decide you wanna go out and get a PhD or something like that,

[00:49:27] Stacey: Right

[00:49:27] Stacey: mm-hmm.

[00:49:27] Kelly: But it's that, that sharing of ideas and concepts that I think is very beneficial to a lot of people. So hopefully we'll carry this on and do some more conversations.

[00:49:35] Stacey: That'd be great. I'd love it.

[00:49:36] Kelly: But I definitely appreciate your time.

[00:49:38] Stacey: Sure.

[00:49:38] Kelly: And we'll put it in the show notes, but how do can people learn more about the geography program at SIUE?

[00:49:44] Stacey: Sure. I would say they just can go onto our website. Uh, all of our faculty profiles are there. You can find my email. I'll make sure to give it to you and everything. But yeah, happy to talk more whenever.

[00:49:55] Kelly: Awesome. Well, we'll definitely put that in the show notes so people can reach out to you and learn more.

[00:49:58] Kelly: Maybe we could [00:50:00] expand the, the student

[00:50:01] Stacey: Sure.

[00:50:01] Kelly: Numbers there.

[00:50:02] Kelly: That sounds good.

[00:50:03] Kelly: Awesome.

[00:50:03] Kelly: Thank you very much.

[00:50:04] Stacey: Sure, of course.

[00:50:06] Kelly: Thanks for joining us on Spatial Connection. If you enjoyed today's episode, please don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast on your favorite platform. You can also follow us on social media and our website.

[00:50:17] Kelly: Do you know someone with a fascinating geospatial story? If so, send us a message. We'd love to hear about them. Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep exploring the world through the lens of geospatial technology.

[00:50:29] Kelly: I.